Tire Information

To: cyclists@cs
Subject: tires (again)
Date: Wed, 24 May 89 12:50:32 EDT
Message-ID: <27963.612031832@CAD.CS.CMU.EDU>
From: Rick Kazman <Rick.Kazman@CAD.CS.CMU.EDU>
Status: RO

Since this was just a topic of discussion, I dragged out my old "tires" file and looked up the following which I snarfed off the net, and which the poster snarfed from the June '88 issue of Bicycling. It is a table which compares various features of tires, bothed claimed and actual. The original poster (kurth@sco.COM (Kurt Hutchison)), put in the following paragraph explaining what each column meant.

>Rolling resistance is in grams, a higher number is more rolling resistance.

>Cornering force (adhesion) is in kilograms, a higher number is more cornering

>ability. Abrasion resistance is in mm3 of tire lost in the test, a lower

>number means a higher abrasion resistance. Puncture resistance is in

>kilograms, a higher number means more puncture resistance.

He also cautions us to take these numbers with a grain of salt, since Bicycling only tested one tire of each type. ---------

Narrow Width Clinchers:

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Avocet Time Trial 30 Kev 125 20c 19.5c 165 173 220 30.6 70 30 Continental Super Sport Ultra Steel 135 18c 18.5c 220 233 260 26.8 60 37 CyclePro Discovery F Kev 125 20c 20.0 200 190 NA NA NA NA IRC Forte Steel 125 20 - 245 - 230 26.4 NA NA IRC Triathlon Steel 125 20 20.5 245 251 NA NA NA NA Michelin Hi-Lite SuperComp HD Kev 110 20 20.5 215 221 240 25.4 110 41 Panaracer Tecnova Steel 115 20 19.0 230 228 250 28.1 100 34 Specialized Turbo/VR Kev 115 25 20 165 172 220 32.5 60 34

Medium Width Clinchers:

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Avocet Road 30 Kev 105 28 27.5 230 251 NA NA 70 45 Avocet Road 20 Steel 105 28 26.5 265 285 230 32.8 70 39 Continental Super-Sport Steel 120 28 27.1 290 316 NA NA 60 42 CyclePro Discovery Steel 105 28 27.1 300 282 NA NA NA NA IRC Road Lite EX Steel 100 28 25.5 235 281 240 27.7 NA NA Michelin High-Lite Road Kev 100 1 1/8" 27.5 265 266 230 25.3 110 NA Michelin Select Steel 100 28 25.0 290 299 270 29.9 110 40 Panaracer (folding) Kev 105 28 27.5 NA 212 NA NA 100 30 Panaracer Steel 105 28 27.0 320 306 NA NA 100 36 Specialized Turbo/R Kev 110 28 25.5 240 258 250 29.0 60 41 Specialized Touring II Steel 105 28 25.5 290 284 260 27.8 60 43

Medium Width (kevlar) Belted clinchers

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Avocet Road K20 Steel 105 28 27.0 300 311 240 29.2 70 49 Panaracer Tourguard (folding) Kev 105 28 27.5 245 235 NA NA 100 38 Panaracer Tourguard Steel 105 28 26.0 330 340 NA NA 100 48 Specialized Turbo SK4 Kev 115 25 21.0 220 222 NA NA 62 57 Specialized Touring II K4 Steel 105 28 25.5 335 318 250 26.6 60 43

Wide Width clinchers

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Avocet Duro K2 Steel 95 32 28.6 335 329 NA NA 70 46 CyclePro Discovery Steel 100 1 1/4 29.2 330 342 NA NA NA NA IRC Tandem Steel 100 30 28.5 345 310 NA NA NA NA Michelin Hi-Lite Tour Kev 85 35 32.3 325 343 NA NA 110 40 Panaracer Steel 75 32 29.0 330 322 NA NA 100 33 Specialized Touring II K4 Steel 100 32 27.5 370 340 250 28.0 60 65 ----------

rick

p.s. I have lots more stuff on tires (personal testimonials and such), if anyone is interested.

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To: John.Greiner@GS2.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: tires 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Jun 90 08:39:24 -0400.
             <9006221242.AA29576@sei.cmu.edu> 
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 90 11:49:26 EDT
From: Rick Kazman 
Status: R

Here it is. It's kind of long.

rick

______________________________________________________________________ From: moore@g.cs.cmu.edu (Dale Moore) Subject: Kevlar Tires

Last year I wondered just how much better tubular tires and rims really were. So, next time I was out at my favorite bike shop, I picked up a pair of Nisi Sludi heat treated alloy tubular 36 hole rims. I already had a used pair of campy high flange hubs, and built 'em up with DT spokes.

Now what tubular tire was I gonna use. Well, since flats with tubulars are such a pain, I saw in the Nashbar catalog

Clement Futura IMPREGNABLE. One of the most flat-resistant tubulars you'll find because of a new puncture-proof kevlar frabric. $16.90 ea.

This had to be the tire for me . Tubular performance and no flats I thought. Name brand. Kevlar must be manna from heaven. Nashbar got me the tires and glue in short order. After learning just how messy that Clement glue can be, I got them glued on and waited 24 hours for the glue to set.

Next day, I don't avoid the glass. I've got kevlar, no glass is gonna worry me. About 6-7 miles later, flat. Not just soft. There it was, a piece of glass, a little larger than a grain of sand, burrowing it's way into tube. On the way home, I have to stop twice and pump up the tire.

I disect the tire and try to repair my first tubular. The glass had managed to push its way between the threads of the fabric and through it. Well maybe it was a fluke. I still have faith. Kevlar ain't gonna let me down again. But it did. This time it took around 60 miles, before it flatted.

The rims and tires are sitting in my basement. The tread on the tires is still good, and probably always will be. I don't worry about kevlar any more. I just take along my clincher patch kit and tire irons.

______________________________________________________________________ From leimkuhl@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu Sun Oct 12 21:45:00 1986 Subject: Re: Kevlar Tires

All Kevlar tubulars are not created equal. National Tire Co. of Japan makes excellent Kevlar-belted tires in a variety of weights (200, 240, 270 grams). These tires do fulfill the promise of Kevlar. National sells their tires under the Panaracer and CyclePro names in the US.

I have 270g's on my training wheels and 200g's on my competitive wheels. The results: after about 1500miles, I've replaced the 270g's due to tread wear and had a total of one flat when a piece of glass cut through the side of the tire, above the belt. I do not ever swerve to avoid debris or wipe my tires. I trained on the 200g's for several weeks this spring, raced them once, and loaned them to my sister who rode them in training and in several triathlons. Those tires (which cost about twice as much as the 270's) show surprisingly little wear despite having a very thin tread cover and have not flatted.

The Clement Futuras which the author of the base note tried have a very lousy reputation among racers, and I have known others who had frequent flats riding those.

By the way, I have had terrible experiences with clinchers.

______________________________________________________________________ From james@scirtp.UUCP (James Sutton) Mon Oct 13 14:04:21 1986 Subject: Re: Kevlar Tires

I like kevlar belted tires. I have put >2500 miles on the set I have now with no flats. About 700 miles has been with camping/touring gear. The rest has been commuting over a lot of glass, rocks, potholes, etc through several road constuction sites. However, the rear tire shows a small crease where the belt has broken. I am told that this is a problem with the nylon casing stretching more than the kevlar belt under high pressures. I have ridden a couple of hundred miles since I noticed the crease with no problems (yet).

I noticed the crease visually, never felt it riding.

______________________________________________________________________ From fischman@convex.UUCP Tue Oct 14 14:38:00 1986 Subject: Re: Kevlar Tires

Clinchers have come a long way baby. I use Performance Nova's and the Performance brand tubes (about $26 for both tubes and tires, just a little more than one of my sew-up Panaracers) The tire is 175 grams and the tubes are 70, that's 245 grams...the same weight of my Panaracers.

I know that my aero Ambrosia clincher rims give up 100 grams a piece to my Mavic tubulars, however except for hillclimbing the clinchers and their aero wheels outperform my beautiful set of tubulars which I only dust off for Sunday rides when I dream about the good old days of cycling. Even without the aero stuff, the clincher has less rolling resistance.

I have to admit that the tubulars have a better ride, but to me not worth the money. By the way, a tubular is NEVER as good as new after it has been patched. A clincher is.

If you have a sponsor or have money, use tubulars. If you've got tubulars and don't want to spend money on a new set of wheels, use tubulars. If you're looking for a hot new set of wheels, get clinchers. All around, they are better right now and getting better all the time.

______________________________________________________________________ From crabb@strshp.dec.com Subject: Kevlar Tubulars

>All Kevlar tubulars are not created equal. National Tire Co. of

>Japan makes excellent Kevlar-belted tires in a variety of weights

>(200, 240, 270 grams). These tires do fulfill the promise of Kevlar.

>National sells their tires under the Panaracer and CyclePro names in the US.

Let me second this. I have had excellent results with Panaracer's by National. They are also more supple in feel than anything else I have seen. The Panaracer's seem to be of better feel and are constructed better than Cycle Pro's. They are good for nylon cased tires.

______________________________________________________________________ From: fischman@convex.UUCP Subject: Re: CyclePro's polytex tubes / Kevlar t

I guess you haven't been reading my stuff because within the last month or two I think we've touched on all of these subjects...but that's ok because it's my favorite subject.

First the polyurethane tubes. I weigh 185 lbs, I use a 175 gram kevlar clincher (performance Nova's) and an 85 gram poly tube (the schwinn brand but I think that you'll find that they are all made by the same company, whoever that may be). Total weight: 260 grams. My rims are about 420grams, Ambrosia Elite Durex. Total weight: 680 grams

I have almost 4,000 miles on this wheel (I only use the poly tube in the back wheel) and I have not had a single flat!!!!!!!! (By the way this is a 20mm cross section tire!) This beats the hell out of anything I have ever gotten from a sew-up (1,000 miles is by far the best I've ever done before a flat). It also is a significant improvement over just a Kevlar clincher, which do no better than the sew-ups for time between flats.

It is important to point out that in Texas, glass is not the problem....it's very fine thorns...from grassburrs called goatheads. They work their way between the threads of the Kevlar. The poly tube is just as good as they say it is. The typical butyl tybe weights 70 grams so the penalty for weight is insignificant.

Here's the catch. Polyurethane is not compliant. It blows up hard as a rock. As a result, handling is worse and so is the ride, but for training and road racing, I have not found this to be a significant problem, particularly if you have a good seat (I'm serious). So since most big people get about 5 rear tire flats to 1 front tire flats, I put up with the ride to gain reliability and leave a 70 gram tube in the front. By the way I've had one flat in the last 5K miles on my standard front tire tube combo. Rolling performance with the poly tube is just as good or better than with the butyl.

Kevlar tublulars are all I ride on for my racing wheels. They are the poor mans silks...I've never ridden on real silks so I can't really compare. They do not last much longer against flats in Texas than a cotton tubluar, but they do roll better and hold up better. You can blow them up to 120 lbs and leave them blown up without having to worry about them self-destructing in your garage (I've had cotton ones blow up in the middle of the night!!!!) As for weight, I ride 240 gram panaracers which are almost the same as the ones you mentioned. Notice that the weight reduction is pretty insignificant 240 grams vs 260 grams for the poly/nova combo. Where the gains are made are in the rims. My mavic tublulars weigh about 340 grams....80 grams less than the clincher rim for a total of about 100 grams less per wheel. This is significant if you are racing, but even here it is debateable...Good kevlar clinchers seem to have an advantage in rolling resistance because of the characteristics of the material and because of how perfectly straight they mount. It is near impossible to perfectly mount a sew-up!!!!

But here is the big reason to race with sew-ups....they ride and handle better!! There is less rim in the way. They are also very easy to change on the road. Clinchers are hard to very hard, and the higher performance the clincler, the harder it is to change. If money were no object, I'd ride mostly sew-ups but since I can't buy everything I want, 95% of my riding is on clinchers. I hope that covers it.

______________________________________________________________________ Subject: Re: CyclePro's polytex tubes / Kevlar tubulars

I have been using the Cyclepro Kevlar Tubulars for about 2 years now and love them. In particular the 240 gram tires provide me with the best performance. They are light and yet hold up real good to glass and small sharp stones in the road. One thing you should do after every ride to prolong the life of the tire even more is to check the tires after every ride and use a glue such as "Shoe Gue" to seal up any small cuts you may get. I found it works real good.

______________________________________________________________________ From fischman@convex.UUCP Mon Apr 27 16:49:00 1987 Subject: Don't waste your money

Danger, Danger...in my quest for hot new bike stuff I have found two turkeys that I must warn the cycling community about.

1. Michelin Rim Strip- This is a product that seemed like a great idea. A semi-hard continuous, circular strip of plastic that snaps into the rim and seems like bullet-proof spoke hole protection. Well bad news. It doesn't last long. The plastic is hard and it tends to split when the tube pushes it into the spoke hole. I would have guessed it would last forever,,,but noooooo. I went to change a flat and noticed that after 1000 miles it was all cracked inside....Velox rim tape lasts longer than that. Specialized took the idea and has improved it. Their rim strip is much more flexible and is not supposed to crack. I haven't tried it yet but I will soon. Anyone tried it yet?

2. The specialized turbo r is not an everyday roadworthy tire...It is much to small. It is 19 mm wide and sits very low on the rim. As a result there sure ain't much air in there and at 185 lbs it's tough on rims. I put a hole big enough to put my finger through the case after just 200 miles. $19 out the window. The performance nova is a much tougher tire at 175 grams and with a much taller profileb ($14 mail order). And the VS and VR are problably better still (although they cost so much I can't afford to see how well they last). I never did feel safe with the turbo r and the debris that trashed it was in my opinion very insignificant. A turbo s would have had no trouble at all with the same road...what do you think about the turboR????????????

______________________________________________________________________ From lucinda@endor.harvard.edu (Killer Kaye) Wed Jun 10 10:36:38 1987 Subject: Re: Flats and Urban riding

I used to get up to 3 flats/week riding on normal tires, then I switched to Kevlar and didn't get a flat for a year - I once pried a tack out from between my treads; the tire had managed to bend the point down, unless it was like that already.

______________________________________________________________________

From sharp@lll-tis.arpa (Jim Sharp) Wed Jun 10 11:47:45 1987 Subject: Re: Flats and Urban riding

I commute 9 miles to work down a stretch of road that is known for being brutal on bicycle tires. About 4 months ago I puchased a set of "Mr. Tuffys" (only $9 vs. around $32 for a set of kevlar tires), and since then I have not had one flat. They're fairly easy to install and the peace of mind they give you is more than worth the cost (no more checking the tires everytime you run over a piece of glass.)

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From shekita@provolone.WISC.EDU (Eugene Shekita) Wed Jun 10 12:08:11 1987 Subject: Re: Flats and Urban riding

Last year I was getting a flat every month or so on my commuter bike. After going through a couple of tires and tubes I finally got fed up enough to try a pair of Specialized Kevlar touring tires. They were expensive, but well worth it. I didn't get another flat all year with those tires.

Unfortunately I can't report on how the Kevlars have held up this year because the bike was stolen last fall. Interestingly enough, the commuter bike I'm riding now doesn't have Kevlars but I haven't gotten a flat on it yet. My old commuter bike had 1 1/8" tires, and this baby has 1 1/4" tires, so maybe that makes a difference. Then again, maybe I've just been lucky. In any case, I highly recommend the Kevlars for commuting.

Gene

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From fish@ihlpa.ATT.COM Mon Mar 28 17:24:19 1988 Subject: Re: Disadvantages of Kevlar tires (Was: Bicycle reviews)

Kevlar belted tires have numerous disadvantages. The most immediately evident of these are less flexibility and higher rolling resistance. Another consideration is weight; kevlars are heavier. However, the most serious problem with kevlar clincher tires is that the belt is relatively inflexible compared to the sidewalls. This creates stress along the tire beads, which will eventually separate from the sidewall, giving you a tear in the tire near the rim. This kind of damage is not repairable, and you can't even rely on the usual tricks for limping home with a torn tire (patching the tear with foil, duck tape, etc.).

I have had one experience with a kevlar tire. A few years ago, I put one on the back wheel after getting disgusted about a rash of flats. The tire did hold air; it never puntured. However, it felt like riding in wet sand, made the bike handle like a truck, and developed a tear in the sidewall after about 500 miles. I felt that the relative flat resistance was not worth the sacrifice in ride and handling, and I couldn't deal with the failure when it occurred. When I am ten miles from home and it's 99 degrees out, I don't like mechanical problems I can't deal with.--

______________________________________________________________________

From bhilden@druhi.ATT.COM Thu Mar 31 12:39:46 1988 Subject: Clincher Tire Width: A Personal Opinion

While we are discussing the issue of kevlar tires I thought I`d throw in my 2 cents worth on tire width.

I am a firm believer in 28mm tires and feel they are appropriate for racing, touring, commuting, recreational, etc. types of riding. If you look at most of the high priced sew-ups(Vittoria's) they are a lot closer to 28mm wide than 25mm wide.

The thinner width tires give a harsher ride, are more prone to snake bite flats, wear more quickly and cost more money (especially the foldable types). It is interesting to note that the 28mm tires are usually less than an ounce heavier than 25mm tires and they can usually use the same tube.

Anyway, I would rather spend what little time I have to ride on the bike and not fixing a flat or replacing a tire. For these two reasons alone I think the 28mm tires are superior. I also do a lot of solo rides of 150+ miles and the piece of mind these tires bring is invaluable.

I currently ride Performance Nova GT`s (~$8/tire) and get about 2000- 2500 miles on one tire. Oh yeah, I logged 10,000+ miles last year and had 2 flats (1-ran over a nail in a board, 2-patch came off).

Bruce Hildenbrand

ps- anybody who says you cannot race (or at least time trial) on these tires is wrong.

______________________________________________________________________

From wiebe@uw-june.UUCP Fri Apr 8 16:28:48 1988 Subject: Re: high performance clinchers

Another testimonial:

I've been riding Michelin Hi-Lite Comps, 700 X 20C's, for about 5000 miles now. The best move I've made in a while. Even though I'm not a lightweight (~165 lb) I've never had a snakebite pinch with them, although I've had plenty with other tires. Previously I'd used both Specialized and Avocets extensively. The Michelins are far more flat-resistant than either of these. And when they do flat, they're a hell of a lot easier to get on and off my rims (Mavic G-40's) than Specializeds.

My current pair has got a lot of (glass-infested) miles on them and my rear tire looks like its been through the Cuisinart. I keep expecting it to blow. But its been at least 1000 miles since it had a flat. If it was a Specialized, I would have junked it ages ago.

However, there seems to be a big difference between the Hi-Lite Comps and the Hi-Lite Pros. I've also tried the Pros and they didn't hold up nearly as well as the Comps. The Comps are slightly heavier but apparently much more durable. So my advice is buy the Comps but not the Pros.

- Doug

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From: jdu@ihlpf.ATT.COM (John Unruh, NY9R) Subject: Re: Tire Traction (WAS:Re: Penny-Farthing Was:Re: Real ...)

I have to agree that Michelin clinchers have good traction. I believe it is related largely to the rubber compound. My commuter bike has HI-Lite Roads, which are great tires for general commuting with light loads (a few books and papers, and a change of clothes). My racing bike has Hi-Lite Comps when it doesn't have sew-ups. I have found these tires to have traction at least as good as the Roads, even though they are "bald". I have also had the fewest flats with the Michelin tires of any tires I have ever used (1 flat in a full year, and that was a rim pinch where the pothole damaged a MA-40 - The person ahead of me in the paceline swerved at the last second, and by the time I saw the pothole it was too late).

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From: james@h-three.UUCP (james) Subject: Re: Specialized Touring II problems

On my recent tour...

We started with brand new Performance NOVA GT/K 27 x 1 1/8". The tire has smooth center tread and little ridges on the sides and kevlar belts. I got nearly 3000 km on my rear tire, my friend (lighter, carrying slightly less gear) got ~4000 km. The only flats either of us had were pinches from potholes or stones. I probably had about a dozen on my rear tire. My rear tire was worn down to the casing when I changed it.

We carried a LOT of weight. I don't know just how much, but my vetta rear rack came apart after about 3 weeks (including some rough gravel road accounting for most of the flats) and my Aussie replacement (Carrywell, same design, alloy, etc) busted a couple of welds before we got through.

We never had a single flat due to puncture even though we travelled through territory famous for thorns called 'three corner jacks'. I did get a couple of thorns stuck into the sole of my shoe. They looked pretty mean.

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From: kurth@sco.COM (Kurt Hutchison) Subject: Specialized Tire Test

My developement computer is down today so I have some extra time. At the request of a netter, here is a summary of the tire report in Bicycling June '88.

Use this table at your own risk, both I and Bicycling may have made errors.

There were about a zillion other numbers such as the ideal and maximum rim width for each tire, the tread type of each tire, the casing thickness and others. I have only posted the numbers I found interesting. I have posted all of the tires listed in the article.

The width marked was the french version (700x25c for example) there is another way of marking tire width called ETRTO which more accurately reflects the real tire width. In most cases the ETRTO width when supplied matched the measured width. The manufacteres freely admitted that their tires were usually about one size smaller than marked with the french designation. They blame the customers saying that if the sizes matched that we wouldn't buy that tire because it was "too big".

As a scientific test I tend to discount these numbers other than as general indicators. They only tested one tire of each type. No attempt to get a reasonable size sample group was made. Thus no measurements for how much variation (quality control) occurs in a given type of tire is available. Numbers like puncture resistance I would tend to think are highly suspect. Abrasion and cornering I would tend to trust more since rubber compounds are pretty homogenous and the test tests the whole surface of the tire which in effect gets a larger sample size.

- kurt

Rolling resistance is in grams, a higher number is more rolling resistance. Cornering force (adhesion) is in kilograms, a higher number is more cornering ability. Abrasion resistance is in mm3 of tire lost in the test, a lower number means a higher abrasion resistance. Puncture resistance is in kilograms, a higher number means more puncture resistance.

Narrow Width Clinchers:

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Medium Width Clinchers:

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Medium Width (kevlar) Belted clinchers

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

Wide Width clinchers

bead PSI Marked Measured claimed Measured Rolling cornering abrasion puncture max size size weight weight resistance force resist resist

______________________________________________________________________ From: Hans.Tallis@ML.RI.CMU.EDU Subject: slick vs treaded tires

The current Cyclist magazine has a interview with reps from Specialized, Avocet, michelin, and Continental. They all agreed that slicks have at least as much traction as treaded tires under all conditions. Treads are some psychological crutch for people who think a bicycle tire can hydroplane like a car tire (which it can't).

--Hans

______________________________________________________________________ From: blalock@stdc01.UUCP (Pamela Blalock) Subject: Re: Michelin Hi-Lite Tires Summary: Michelins work great on French Rims, but beware of Arayas Keywords: bead flange hook Date: 7 Aug 89 21:06:39 GMT

In article <8695@cbnews.ATT.COM>, blb@cbnews.ATT.COM (Benson L. Branch) writes:

> I just purchased, mail-order, a couple of Michelin Hi-Lite Tour tires,

> 27x1-3/8, but I gotta admit I'm still not confident about rim suitability.

> Two catalogs (NashBar and REI) mentioned "use on hook-bead rims" or

> "hook flange rims." Performance and BikeCentennial catalogs make no such

> statement. No message was included with the tires themselves.

[stuff deleted]

> I'm not sure what to make of the "hook-bead" stuff. My rims are Wolber

> Super Champion Model 58, my wife's bike has ones marked "Araya 27x1-1/4".

> Are these "hook bead"? Is hook bead "normal", with smooth-walled rims

> being the exception, or is it vice-versa? I've never had to make the

> distinction before.

> Thanks much,

> Ben A couple years ago the owner of a local bike shop stopped selling Michelins because they would pop off the rims. A friend of mine who lived in France had a similar experience on a Tour. Upon further discussion we discoved what the Nashbar catalogue states, that the folding Michelins should only be used on hook bead rims. I filed this information in the back of my mind. Several months later I went to France to participate in the Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur Brevet. The bike I carried had Araya Aero rims ( of some vintage ) About 60 miles into the ride ( length 750 miles ) I was at the end of a paceline that passed over a deeply recessed manhole cover. I'm sure they yelled out a warning, but it was in French, and back at the end, I didn't understand, nor did my companion in front of me. Anyway, I hit the hole hard and blew both my tires. Double snake bites. I had a few boots with me, but we didn't discover all the holes immediately. Being a timed event, we were in a hurry while changing the tires. Needless to say I continued having flats until I discovered all the holes. The first checkpoint, and first bikeshop was located 100+ miles into the ride. I immediately headed into the shop to buy new tires. Michelins are French, and guess what the only type of tire they carried was. I remembered that conversation about these tires not working on my rims, and continued on with my patched, taped, booted tires. After a day of flats, I gave up.

What an incredible disappointment. I had trained for a year specifically for this ride. But part of randonneur events is keeping both machines ( body and bike ) functioning. Anyway, after I came home, I started checking into wheels and tires. My companion, who did go on and finish the ride, suggested tubulars. You don't have to find the hole if you start over with a new tire. Easy to change, etc. I tried these for a while, but found I was so paranoid about flats that I carried tons of spares on long rides. How could I carry all I would need for PBP. Anyway, then I tried Michelins. First, I traded my Arayas in on a pair of Mavic MA40s. ( French tires fit French rims. ) I bought Michelin Hi-Lite Comps. Now I have over 7000 miles on these tires without a flat. What started as frustration over a tire not staying on a rim has become love for a tire that is more reliable than any I've ever tried. I've also tried different rims. I also have Michelins on a pair of Matrix Aero rims.

I've been telling so many people about my 7000 mile tires that I'm sure my charmed life will soon change. And I'm prepared. I think it is fantastic to get 7000 miles out of a tire, let alone without a flat, so I'm retiring them today with their dignity. Actually they have little cuts all through them, but no flats. Michelin advertises that these tires are very flat resistant because of a special weaving method, where a cut won't go through all layers of cord. I read a letter from a Michelin rep last year in _Bicycling_ in response to a tire test, explaining all the technical reasons. Since I've had such a positive experience, they will be replaced with Michelin SuperComps. They are kind of expensive, but since reliability ( not at great expense to performance ) is a large factor in my decision, I think they are worth it. Of course, this is one woman's experience, and others may have had bad experiences, but I have no complaints.

Anyway to try to answer your question. The tires should work on your Wolber Rims ( they are French ) provided you have the right size. I personally would not recommend using them on the Arayas. Now I've heard of people not having any problems at all, but I've also heard about and personally seen them pop off Arayas. And who wants to be a long way from home with a tire that won't stay on.

Again I highly recommend the tire ( the whole line of them ), but only on the appropriate rim.

Happy cycling, -- Pamela Blalock rti!stdc01!blalock Star Technologies Research Triangle Park, NC

______________________________________________________________________

From: dmocsny@uceng.UC.EDU (daniel mocsny) Subject: Re: Do these things work? Summary: Boy, do they. (!) Keywords: IRC Blizzard Tires Date: 12 Sep 89 03:50:04 GMT

In article <1680@cbnewsd.ATT.COM>, spike@cbnewsd.ATT.COM (Bob Fishell) writes:

> Anybody have any experience (good/bad/indifferent) with IRC Blizzard

> tires?

Hello? Is this thing working? Testing...testing..."We have declared war on the Soviet Union, we begin bombing in five minutes..."

Oooh, Bob, I'm somewhat miffed. I believe I've slobbered publicly about how wonderful the IRC Blizzards are at least 4 times here. Here I was thinking that I not only had the ear of the rabble, but of the Intellectual Giants as well. OK, so I'll just go grovel in slush for a while.

Well, anyway, if I count as "anybody" here, I'll say this: if you are serious about riding your ATB in places that have at least quasi-REAL (TM) winters, GET THESE TIRES. You'll be amazed.

> The IRCs have studs

> in them, but I'm skeptical about whether they work on a vehicle with

> so little weight.

Have faith, my brother! These babies are unbelievable! The most dangerous part of a ride in freezing rain becomes the walk down the front steps! (Well, almost, you still have the automobiles to worry about...)

I've found the Blizzards to work exactly as advertised on smooth ice. You can't do anything too radical, but you will not get stopped. You will not fall over if you don't try to corner too hard. I rode up 14% grades that were totally covered with ice. Past stalled cars, no less. The wide-eyed looks were worth the purchase price.

Descending steep grades is a wee bit hairy...if your speed gets away from you, you will have a problem. I never tried pushing it.

Deep snow is as tough as ever. The Blizzards are pretty good in snow, but not nearly as good as they are on ice. I found myself reversing my thinking on winter road hazards. The patches of ice I once struggled to avoid became a relief.

I only fell once on the Blizzards. I was trying to climb a frozen embankment in a park. It wasn't very high, but it was steep. The ice cover was solid and wet. I slid back to the bottom. I couldn't have made it up on foot. Unless I had crampons and an ice axe, I guess :-)

> At >$30 apiece, I'm unwilling to order a set just

> to try them.

I did, and I'd probably buy them at double the price. One ice ride and you'll be a believer.

> Fish

Dan Mocsny dmocsny@uceng.uc.edu

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To: John.Greiner@GS2.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Cc: cyclists@CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: tires 
In-Reply-To: Your message of 25 Jun 90 11:42:06 -0400.
             <9006251550.AA15594@sei.cmu.edu> 
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 90 12:13:50 EDT
From: Rick Kazman 
Status: R

In my opinion, it is worth it to go to a slightly wider tire, even for your fun bike. Whatever minimal amount of time you lose due to extra rolling resistance will be more than offset by the amount of time you spend actually riding (rather than fixing flats). Go for 700x25, 700x28 or even 700x32.

The wider the tire is, the fewer flats you'll get. Bear in mind, however, that different manufacturers differ widely on what size tire you actually get when you're buying a 700x25. Compare the tires directly, because Michelin's 700x25 may be narrower than a Specialized 700x20.

I've ridden quite a few miles on Performance Novas. They are, in my opinion, only average in their flat resistance. Go for the Michelins. The extra bucks aren't really that much in the long run.

Also, pump up your tires before every ride. It makes a huge difference. Get a floor pump if you don't already have one.

rick

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From: Sean.Smith@THEORY.CS.CMU.EDU
To: john.greiner@GS2.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: flats
Status: R

Sorry to hear about your bad luck, John.

From what I've heard and experienced, Panaracers SUCK. My new bike came with them. Blew out one tire in the first time trial i did with it---the sidewall ripped so badly that I couldn't even put a new tube in and start again. The other tire was about to blow a week later, but I noticed the defect before riding one day. For a few years Cannondales came with these, and the gossip I heard was "good bikes, but throw out the tires."

I use 700 x 20 HiLite Comps during the summer, and bulletproof 700x5000 (well , maybe 700 x 28) superslow Specialized for crappy gravel winter riding.

700 x20 is a bit narrow for these streets, but Michelins run on the big side anyway.

I've heard that some people have trouble with Michelins. You need to have rims with a pronounced hook.

Good luck!

--Sean

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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 1990 12:29-EDT 
From: David.Zabowski@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
To: John.Greiner@GS2.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: tires
Message-Id: <646331369/stork@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: John.Greiner's bboard message of 25-Jun-90 11:55
Status: R

John,

I ride with 20s all the time. Of course, PGH Pro claims something stupid like that. I have seen them do all kinds of bogus (read this borderline unethical) stuff to customers. Anyway, I have been riding with the IRC Triathalon Kevlar Tires with no problem. They run about 15 each from Nashbar. I ride with them in ALL kinds of weather (even snow) and find that they are pretty good in most situations. They didn't really deal with snow well (what 700x20 tire could?) but everything else that you encounter on the road is not a problem. I hope that this helps.

Stork

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From: brad@cup.portal.com (Paul B Anders)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Folding tire testimonials wanted
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Date: 21 Jun 91 17:05:31 GMT
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Eric House writes :

>I'm thinking about getting a pair of Michelin SuperComp HDs, probably 23c

>width. As far as I know, these are only available with kevlar beads, ie.

>in a folding model. But there's been some talk here of late of folding

>tires coming off rims -- which I definitely don't want to happen.

>So I'd like to ask for some testimonials. If you've used folding, high

>pressure tires successfully for at least 2500 miles of hard riding, please

>send me a note to that effect. I'll summarize the results and post in a

>week or so. Of course, you are welcome to post your comments if you

>prefer.

I've ridden Conti GP's, with both foldable and wire beads the past year or so, about 10K miles of riding. I use the 23mm tires exclusively, and have them mounted on two sets of wheels, one with Mavic O4CD's, the other with Campy Omega Strada Box rims. Several points :

* They are the easiest tire to mount I've ever used. No tools needed for mounting, and sometimes none needed for dismounting! I'm not always sure this is a good thing...

* The wear is acceptable, with the rear going at about 2K mi, and the fronts going until nuked or rotted.

* Very resistant to punctures, I've only had about 4-5 in the last 10K due to glass, metal, stones, etc. I have had about 2-3 rim pinch flats during the same time without tire damage.

* The sidewalls are pretty easy to damage, I've thrown away a couple of tires due to cuts. Unlike some of my friends, when I get a nasty cut, the tire is history. I figure that the medical bill for splattering on a descent from a blowout would probably cancel my savings on the tire.

* The tires corner very well, but considering that very few riders ever even remotely approach the cornering limits of their tires (and yes, I'm including us who race), I don't think there is that much difference between top tire brands.

* Rolling off the rim : This is a touchy subject. Jobst and other techno-netter's will give you all of the technical reasons why it's not possible, but there is a growing body of evidence that it happens. A number of riders in this year's Tour of Marin crit, which was very twisty, claimed that their tires rolled off. A week ago in the Fremont Thursday Night Crit race for Cat IV's, a rider in front of a teammate of mine supposedly rolled his rear tire, crashing my teammate and causing him severe injuries.

The tire/rim combination being blamed for these events is the use of a "Japanese" (read : Araya) rim with a "European" (read: Conti and Michelin) tire. While the source of this information is shady, I've had the exact same experience when trying to use an 18mm Conti GP with and Araya rim on my TT bike. Experimentation with various tires led me to the conclusion that it wasn't the bead or the brand of tire, but the cross-section. Tires of 20mm or less cross-section became easily unseated from the Araya rim. The cause was the "hook" profile of the Araya, which on closer examination was not a hook but a bump. I can supply more details for those who are interested. For another reference on this subject, talk to Terry Shaw or to John Elgart at Shaw's in Santa Clara.

In my riding experience with the 23mm Conti GP's, I have not seen anything that indicates that they will roll off the rims that I am using. This includes 50+ mph descents in races with 40+ mph turns, the San Jose Pro Am Points Race, where we were cornering at the limit, and the Mammoth Crit where bicycle abuse is redefined. I don't have any information on the likelyhood of rolling the 18mm tires.

Brad Anders Sunnyvale, CA brad@cup.portal.com


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From: johnr@hp-lsd.COS.HP.COM (John T. Rasper)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Folding tire testimonials wanted
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Eric writes:

>So I'd like to ask for some testimonials. If you've used folding, high

>pressure tires successfully for at least 2500 miles of hard riding, please

>send me a note to that effect.

I have used Conti Folding Super Sport Ultra's (700Cx23) on my road bike for well over 3000 miles with very few problems (4 flats). I have just recently replaced them with non-foldable GranPrix's (700Cx18) because I found a sale on them ($17) at a store that was no longer going to carry the wire beaded versions. I carry one of the old tires as a spare.

The foldable tires are handier to carry, and also much lighter than the wire beaded tires. For instance, the new GranPrix's I purchased weigh about the same as the old foldable SuperSport's. The foldable GranPrix's are about (working from memory here) 40 grams lighter than the wire bead, for what it's worth.

The down side of the foldables is the price, they seem to perform as well as the wirebeads.

John Rasper Hewlett-Packard COL johnr@col.hp.com P.O. Box 617 (719) 590-5895 Colorado Springs, CO 80901-0617

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From: krimsln@prism.CS.ORST.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: tires
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Jobst Brandt writes:

I invoke Polly's words "So don't condemn those tires out of hand -". My tires currently are Avocet ROAD 20's and my flats are almost exclusively snake bites from excessive speed on rocky dirt roads (like the old Gavia Pass as seen in the advertisement). I have no trouble changing tires nor do they wear out fast. In contrast to the Specialized Touring II's that I used to use, the Avo ROAD lasts more than twice as long. I used to rotate tires on my alpine tours to make the trip of 2000 miles. Both tires were at the cords after that. Now I pump them up before I leave here, ride 2000-2400 miles in the Alps and come home after four weeks with plenty of rubber to ride a couple of long rides here. I have done this without pumping a tire the whole time.

I have used Avocet Road 20's for 3 months. They seem to roll very easily, but I have had one flat and there is a large cut in the sidewall that is causing the tire to separate. I'll probably have to replace it soon (after only about 600 miles). I have used the tires exclusively in wet weather (they're on my rainy training bike) and they have provided excellent traction. I have used Michelin HiLite Comps on my nice bike in [mostly] good weather. I have had not a single flat, no blowouts, or any other problems with them. They have about 3500 miles on them and there's still lots of tread left, but the rubber is cracking. They provide excellent traction in dry weather and are good in the rain too.

Summary: Avocet tires give excellent traction and rolling resistance, but average durability and flat resistance. They seem to roll a little easier than the Michelins.

Michelins give excellent traction and good rolling resistance, as well as exellent flat resistance and good durability.

ride bike (in the endless Oregon rain)

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From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: folding tire testimonials: summary
Keywords: tires
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A few weeks back I posted a question (included below) asking for mail from people who had been happily using folding tires. I promised to summarize and post the results if there was interest, which there was.

Seventeen people responded (several on the net; I've included them here too for completeness). Of those responses, only one said he'd had any trouble with folding tires that he wouldn't attribute to his own error. Many people alluded to the stories we hear about tires coming off of rims, but attributed this to using the wrong (ie Araya) rims.

The comments are included below for your enjoyment. I've removed the names and addresses of senders, and in a few cases cut portions that were not relevant to the subject.

Please keep the context -- ie my original question -- in mind. This was not a poll. I specifically asked for responses only from those who had used folding tires a lot and were happy with them. Besides, even if most people have no trouble you won't be happy if you happen to wind up in the minority when the consequences can be this serious.

Several people reported much better mileage out of Conti Gran Prix than my friend has experienced. It may just be that he tosses his once they begin to show a bit of wear. Maybe I can get him to toss them to me...

I decided to buy a Michelin Super Comp HD a couple of days ago. I have a few weeks of wear left on my rear tire (a wire-bead Conti super sport) so I may yet decide to take it back. But I'll probably give it a try in commuting and parking lot cornering, and then take it out into the hills if it feels ok. If it lasts the 3000 miles people have reported, I'll have till October to decide whether to go back to wire beads.

Thanks to all who responded.

********************** my original post ********************** I'm thinking about getting a pair of Michelin SuperComp HDs, probably 23c width. As far as I know, these are only available with kevlar beads, ie. in a folding model. But there's been some talk here of late of folding tires coming off rims -- which I definitely don't want to happen.

So I'd like to ask for some testimonials. If you've used folding, high pressure tires successfully for at least 2500 miles of hard riding, please send me a note to that effect. I'll summarize the results and post in a week or so. Of course, you are welcome to post your comments if you prefer.

For the curious: I'll be putting these on Mavic MA-2s; I'm leaning toward the Supercomp HD's because they are supposed to ride extremely well while lasting a long time (R.E.I., a block from work, is willing to give me my money back if they don't satisfy me by lasting the rest of the summer); I also considered Conti Gran Prix, which are also about $25 in the latest issue of Excel's catalog, but a friend who's lighter than I am gets 800- 1000 miles out of his on the back. No thanks.

****************** positive responses ******************

I've been using Michelin Hi-Lite Comps (700x23 rear, 700x20 front) for the last ~7500 miles on my road bike. They're nice tires -- they grip the road well, and I've never had a problem with them coming off, including one time when I really nailed a pine cone and slashed right through the sidewall of the tire. I just put my 3rd tire on the rear, and am still on the 2nd one in front (I typically get ~3000 miles/rear tire and ~5000 miles/front tire with these tires).
I also have a Michelin Hi-Lite Tour (700x35 folding tire) on the rear of my tandem. This tire has also given us no problems -- we just had our first flat on it last weekend after 900 miles of smooth tandeming. The tandem has Wolber Champion 58 rims.
Haven't used the HD's; have used Michelin Comp folders ($16 at REI) 700x20 for almost 3 years. My rear tires last about one season (2500 miles); front tires about 4K miles. I weigh 150 lb.
I, and a bunch of guys in my team use Michelin Comp, SuperComp and SuperComp HD with no blowoffs. We do all use hook-bead rims (MA40, MA2, Wolber T410, etc.). I have about 2000 miles on mine, and they're still going.
I've sold a lot of Michelin folding tires when I worked in bike shops a few years back. We had a lot of problems with Michelins blowing off of Japaneese rims. We also had a lot of problems with Michelins blowing off of rims when latex tubes were used. This was true even when they were installed by pros so it is not just bad mounting. I think that the flexible latex tubes may be able to work its way under Michelins for some reason. We had one case where a Michelin may have blown off of an European rim that was correctly mounted with a butyl tube but it was hard to tell what happened. The rider crashed in the hairpin turn of a criterium course and the bike had a broken spoke, a slightly folded wheel, and a blown off tire. The spoke could of broke causing the wheel to colapse causing the tire to blow off or the tire could have blown off causing the crash, etc. The rider hit his head and could not help.
I regularly run Hi-Lite Comps on both my road and commuter bikes. I would estimate that I have over 15,000 miles on these tires (I average about 2500 miles at tire). In all those miles, I had one blow off the rear rim while the bike was resting at a rest stop. No damage to the tire. It has never happened since (~5000miles ago) and I consider it an isolated incident probably due to my error.
I can highly reccomend these tires and I have no desire to try something new as these work great for me. I do not find the foldability a plus or minus. I just put a new tire on the rim and ride. I took an old worn out tire and cut it up to make a couple of boots to carry with me and it took sheet metal sheers to cut thru the kevlar! That stuff is amazing. Also, my flat experience is that I average about 2 flats a year.
I am a very satisfied customer[.]
I can't quote mileage of Supercomp HDs since I don't keep track. I have gone through a couple, but I use them for most of my training and a little racing, although I usually race on sewups. The supercomps have been reasonably flat resistant. I do prefer the 23 width to the 20. I think they ride better, have better flat resistance, and they are easier to put the tube in.
I just had a set of wheels built by Colorado Cyclist using Mavic MA-2 rims with Michelin Hi-Light Comp 23's. I had been reading the posts about Michelins blowing off rims, etc. and I spoke with one of the guys at CC (Mike) about this. Apparently Michelins on Mavics is a very popular combo for them, and they've never heard of any problems.
Michelins will stay on your MA-2 rims.
What people don't realise often is that you need hooked-edge rim to use Kevlar bead tyres. Your MA-2 rims has the necessary hooks and the tyres will stay on, provided that you mount them properly. I have been using Avocet Criterium, Specialized Turbo R, Michelin Hi-Lite Comp and various other Kevlar bead tyres with my MA-40 rims (MA-2 with hard anodising) with no problems for over 10,000 miles. Oh, yes, Specialized Turbo R once blew off because I mounted it improperly.
I've been using Michelin Comp's for about 1000 miles. I've noticed that the rubber is just beginning to pull away from the bead, the standard kevlar bead problem. I picked them partly for their reputation as being puncture-resistant, and I can concur with that (1, maybe 2, flats).
You should have no worries, Eric. I race and train on MA2's and have never had a blow off problem. I've been using 700x23c Michelin's @ 120psi with no problems at all. Some Japanese rims (e.g. Araya (?)) tend to let tires come off, but not Mavic's.
High performance tires are made of softer rubber which tend to flatten out after 1500+ miles of use. I used the Hd's and are very happy with them, my tires with 2500+ miles are flat in the back, but still very usable (i.e. not noticible, and NO flat's yet (well maybe one).) If you want a longer distance tire look at the specialized K4
[name deleted] P.S. Never had any blow off or know anyone who did except person without hooked rims on a schwinn.
i've put about 2500 miles on my conti gran prix (including lots of racing) and simply love them. it's time to replace the rear tire though. i weigh 132 lbs and seem to have gotten 2500 mi from my gran prix tires with no problems - what does your friend to to wear out tires so fast? fyi, the rims are mavic o4cd. i also have a set of michelin hi-lite comps on some mavic ma-2's with about 1500 miles on them. the michelin's seem to get cut up easily compared to the conti's and are much more difficult to mount. the conti's can be mounted without the aid of tools where the michelins always require tire irons to mount. all this talk on the net about clincher tires 'blowing-off' the rims has me a bit baffled. i have never had this happen to me or known anyone (at least who would admit to it) who has had this happen. i tend to use specialized turbo tubes in the conti-o4cd wheels and whatever cheap tube (or an old turbo with more than 3 patches) in the michelin-ma2 wheels. based on personal experience, i tend to prefer the conti grand prix tires over the michelin hi-lite comps. i don't know whether it is simply psychological (the conti's are more $$$ than the michelins) but i believe the conti's handle better. your mileage may vary.
I've ridden Michelin folding tires exclusively for 3 years and 28,000+ kilometres and never had one come of the rim. I was using the Michelin Pro 700x19 in the front and the Michelin Comp 700x20 in the rear.
I just tried the Supercomp HD 700x20 in the rear and didn't notice *any* difference, either in ride or durability. (I'm not going to buy another one; I'll stick to the normal Comp.)
For reference, I do a lot of hard riding on roads and highway, which probably accounts for the wear. I suppose the Supercomp could be more durable, but it didn't seem to be, and certainly not enough to warrant the extra $8 or whatever it is.
I put 7000 to 10000 miles a year on my bike - always with kevlar bead folding tires. The only times I even heard of tires blowing off are when the inner tube is not properly seated. By the way I use Michies and Connies ( Grand Prix ). I think Continentals give a superior ride. I use Mich 20's at 130 psi and Connie 19's a 145 psi. Both tires have good longevity ( Rear ~1500 miles and front > 2500 miles). I weigh 175 to 180 lbs.
[from a posted response] * Rolling off the rim : This is a touchy subject. Jobst and other techno-netter's will give you all of the technical reasons why it's not possible, but there is a growing body of evidence that it happens. A number of riders in this year's Tour of Marin crit, which was very twisty, claimed that their tires rolled off. A week ago in the Fremont Thursday Night Crit race for Cat IV's, a rider in front of a teammate of mine supposedly rolled his rear tire, crashing my teammate and causing him severe injuries.
The tire/rim combination being blamed for these events is the use of a "Japanese" (read : Araya) rim with a "European" (read: Conti and Michelin) tire. While the source of this information is shady, I've had the exact same experience when trying to use an 18mm Conti GP with and Araya rim on my TT bike. Experimentation with various tires led me to the conclusion that it wasn't the bead or the brand of tire, but the cross-section. Tires of 20mm or less cross-section became easily unseated from the Araya rim. The cause was the "hook" profile of the Araya, which on closer examination was not a hook but a bump. I can supply more details for those who are interested. For another reference on this subject, talk to Terry Shaw or to John Elgart at Shaw's in Santa Clara.
In my riding experience with the 23mm Conti GP's, I have not seen anything that indicates that they will roll off the rims that I am using. This includes 50+ mph descents in races with 40+ mph turns, the San Jose Pro Am Points Race, where we were cornering at the limit, and the Mammoth Crit where bicycle abuse is redefined. I don't have any information on the likelyhood of rolling the 18mm tires.
[from a posted response] I have used Avocet Road 20's for 3 months. They seem to roll very easily, but I have had one flat and there is a large cut in the sidewall that is causing the tire to separate. I'll probably have to replace it soon (after only about 600 miles). I have used the tires exclusively in wet weather (they're on my rainy training bike) and they have provided excellent traction. I have used Michelin HiLite Comps on my nice bike in [mostly] good weather. I have had not a single flat, no blowouts, or any other problems with them. They have about 3500 miles on them and there's still lots of tread left, but the rubber is cracking. They provide excellent traction in dry weather and are good in the rain too.
Summary: Avocet tires give excellent traction and rolling resistance, but average durability and flat resistance. They seem to roll a little easier than the Michelins.
Michelins give excellent traction and good rolling resistance, as well as exellent flat resistance and good durability.
[from a posted response] I have used Conti Folding Super Sport Ultra's (700Cx23) on my road bike for well over 3000 miles with very few problems (4 flats). I have just recently replaced them with non-foldable GranPrix's (700Cx18) because I found a sale on them ($17) at a store that was no longer going to carry the wire beaded versions. I carry one of the old tires as a spare.
The foldable tires are handier to carry, and also much lighter than the wire beaded tires. For instance, the new GranPrix's I purchased weigh about the same as the old foldable SuperSport's. The foldable GranPrix's are about (working from memory here) 40 grams lighter than the wire bead, for what it's worth.
The down side of the foldables is the price, they seem to perform as well as the wirebeads.

****************** negative responses ******************

I had a bead snap on me. It was a Michelin Hi-Light Tour. I lost it within 50 miles. I was using a latex tube. It was overinflated on the rear of my tandem. Even considering the fact that it was overinflated (100-110lbs) I consider it the tire's fault. I won't buy Michelin's again.

****************************************************************************
Eric House                      "My employer doesn't share its opinions with
                                 me, so I can share only mine with you"

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From: brad@cup.portal.com (Paul B Anders)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Continental Tire Specs / Clinchers vs. Tubulars
Message-ID: <44538@cup.portal.com>
Date: 19 Jul 91 18:12:18 GMT
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Got a Continental tire catalog from a store the other day. Some interesting info on the GP and the SuperSports :

Type Size (mm) Bead Weight (g) Max Psi -------------- ---------- ------ ---------- ------- Grand Prix 18 Steel 230 135 (3 fabric plys, 18 Kevlar 175 135 2 fabric 20 Steel 240 120 belts ) 20 Kevlar 185 120 23 Steel 255 120 23 Kevlar 205 120 25 Steel 285 120

SuperSport 18 Steel 250 135 Ultra 18 Kevlar 205 135 (3 fabric plys, 23 Steel 300 125 no belts) 23 Kevlar 220 120 25 Steel 310 125

SuperSport 20 Steel 290 120 (3 fabric plys, 20 Kevlar 245 120 no belts) 23 Steel 310 120 25 Steel 330 120 28 Steel 345 120

They also listed weights for their butyl tubes. For 18mm and 25mm tubes, 105g, and for their larger tubes, about 145g. I was suprised at the max inflation pressures listed for the 18mm GP's, as the sidewall indicates that 11 bar is the max (about 154psi).

To compare to tubulars, the Conti Sprinter 250 (@250g), is 22mm wide, and has a maximum inflation pressure of 170psi. The construction is 3 plys, no belts. This is supposedly a pretty good tire for racing. The closest comparable setup with clinchers would be the 23mm GP with Kevlar bead, weighing about 310g with tube, and a max inflation pressure of only 120psi. I've got an 18mm GP on my TT bike, and the tire is so narrow it looks pretty scary...

Another tire that Conti lists is their Competetion Tubular (@240g, 170psi max, 3 plys, 2 belts) that is described as being for "bad roads, high puncture resistance". When you consider the improved strength and weight savings of tubular rims, they look even better.

I used to ride on tubulars for years, then switched over to clinchers and have been VERY happy with the ease of use, puncture repair, and durability. But I also noticed a reduction in wet traction (comparing ANY clincher to Vittoria Corsa CX's) and the worry of the tire blowing off of the rim due to either a severe puncture (blowout) or a pinched tube. If the tubular blows, if you did a good glue job it will stay on the rim. This may seem like a minor point, but I'd rather have a flat tubular on pavement rather than a rim, especially if I'm riding a crit or doing an 80kph descent.

Anybody have any experience with the Conti tubulars? I might build up a set of crit wheels.....


Brad Anders
Sunnyvale, CA
brad@cup.portal.com

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From: budn@hpmwtd.HP.COM (Bud Noren)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Repairing small cuts in the tread strip
Message-ID: <12160164@hpmwgde2.HP.COM>
Date: 23 Jul 91 15:40:59 GMT
References: <16373@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>
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sutton@lamar.colostate.edu (Richard Sutton) writes:

>I installed two new Michelin High-Lite Comp 700x23's about 300 miles ago &
>now they are riddled with small cuts to the cords. What should I do?

Switch to Continental tires. That's what I did and the improvement in wear patterns is very noticible. The Conti's wear longer, too.

For the time being, though, ride those Michelins till they're dead. The cuts and craters in them look bad enough to get worried, but I was never able to get any real evidence that it degraded the tire significantly.


                             Bud Noren
                             budn@hpmwgde.HP.COM

                             "There is always a lot of suffering on a bicycle."
                                                    -Jacques Anquetil

Article: 38112 of rec.bicycles Path: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!sei.cmu.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!u5434700 From: u5434700@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au Newsgroups: rec.bicycles Subject: Re: Avocet Cross vs. slicks Message-ID: <1991Aug1.114109.2269@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au> Date: 1 Aug 91 01:41:09 GMT References: <85367@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> <11871@castle.ed.ac.uk> Organization: The University of Melbourne Lines: 39 In article <11871@castle.ed.ac.uk>, eonu11@castle.ed.ac.uk (R Murphy) writes: > engbj@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Bruce Jackson) writes: >> Would the difference be significant or >>negligible? I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who can let me know >>whether investing in a second set of wheels/tires would be worth >>it in this case. > >>Thanks. > > I have used the MAVIC 'road warrior' kevlar slicks, they're great! > The main improvement in rolling resistance is due to the higher tire > pressure (80psi, but I've used 90psi when I was touring with heavy > panniers with no ill effects). > The kevlar belt works a treat, I've used the bike a lot in the city, > and the tires have picked up a lot of glass. I know this is tempting > fate, and all cyclists who say this invariably get a puncture the next > day, but I havn't had a puncture in over a year! I have IRC Metro kevlar belted slicks, which are also great. No punctures in 6 months (though I don't usually get very many). They're rated to 90 psi, and my ATB is as fast as many road bikes down hills (not only due to the weight, I like to think - bike weighs 29 pounds, body weighs 150). > I would seem at first that the tires would have less grip on the road, > but even in the wet, I havn't noticed much difference. They're no use in > mud or in the snow though. > > I think that the slick tires are worth the money, even if you also have > a road bike, because the mountain bike can then be used as a town bike, > touring bike, training bike. Add a set of profile bars, or bar ends, and > who needs a road bike! (well, perhaps not quite as fast) Yep - slick tyres and Scott AT4 bars for the perfect commuter cycle. Your mileage almost certainly varies!

> > Ronan. Ross O'Shea.

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From: kiisaka@csi.UOttawa.CA (Ken Iisaka)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Large Tire Survey
Keywords: large clincher tire survey
Message-ID: <1991Aug9.143508.16965@csi.uottawa.ca>
Date: 9 Aug 91 14:35:08 GMT
References: <1991Aug8.165251.4088@novell.com>
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In article <1991Aug8.165251.4088@novell.com>, chandler@kinetics.com (Mark Chandler) writes: |> I'm conducting a survey for my hybrid/cross newsletter. I'd like to |> find out which brands and models of large (32mm and larger) clinchers |> people are using. Specifically, I'd like to know: |> |> |> o Brand/model/size |> |> o Riding terrain |> |> o General comments (likes/dislikes) |> |> |> I'll compile the results and print them in the next issue of my |> newsletter. All participants will receive a copy of that issue (so |> please include your postal mailing address). I won't sell people's |> names/address either. I'll take info. until Aug. 31. |> |> Thanks in advance, |> |> |> |> Mark Chandler "We do not do this thing because it is permitted. |> chandler@wc.novell.com We do it because we have to." -Rorschach, WATCHMEN |> =========================================================================== |> The opinions expressed above are mine, not my employer's.

I'm using Avocet Cross 700Cx35mm's and an Avocet Cross 700Cx38mm's. The 35mm's are on a hybrid bicycle, whereas the 38mm replaced the original 26mm tyres on a road tandem.

Most of my riding is done on paved roads, occasionally on crushed stone gravel roads and some easy trails.

These tyres are reasonably efficient and quiet. There is no buzzing like knobby tyres which can be tiring on rides longer than 5 minutes. However, the cornering on unpaved roads can be a little scary, psychologically and/or in reality. I do have the feeling of security in corners. However, on paved roads, they are very sure footed. Also, their tall profile gives a comfortable ride, especially for me, the stoker.

Their thick rubber does feel heavy, however, compared to Avocet's FasGrip tyres. I just wish that Avocet manufactured FasGrip tyres wider than 32 mm. -- Ken Iisaka kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca Artificial Intelligence Lab (613)564-8155 (lab) (613)789-2932 (home) Department of Computer Science "If there is artificial intelligence, University of Ottawa, Canada there ought to be artificial stupidity, too."

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From: jobst_brandt%01@hp1900.desk.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Slick tire wear
Message-ID: <47711453.0.0.0@HP1900UX.HPDESK>
Date: 3 Sep 91 17:42:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
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Matt Blaze writes:

> How do you tell when it's time (other than the obvious signs

> like blowout inducing catastrophic failure at 50 mph while riding on

> aero bars[1])? My pre-slick experience has been that my sidewalls would

> usually go before the tread area would wear down, but I just don't know

> how to tell with these.

The surface of the tread rubber should have no effect on whether your tire blows out or not. That is a function of the casing. If the casing is substantially damaged by cuts or from abrasion from the road you have reason to expect such a failure. Unless you regularly park your bike in direct sunlight and ride in a sedentary way, your rear tire should wear out before the sidewalls deteriorate.

The tire is worn out when the cords begin to show through the tread. This usually occurs at one place because tires are spliced and the irregularity at the splice will cause the rubber to wear through there first. Most good clinchers, today, are three ply in the center and two in the sidewalls. Therefore, the appearance of the first cord usually leaves you a day's ride to do something about it. Rotating tires is a good way to wear out tires that otherwise might die of old age on the front wheel. That is to say, put the old front tire on the rear and buy a new tire for the front.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

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From: sutton@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Richard Sutton)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: a tire longevity data point
Keywords: tires, Continental, Michelin
Message-ID: <17616@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>
Date: 14 Sep 91 15:04:37 GMT
References: <57219@apple.Apple.COM>
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In article <57219@apple.Apple.COM> ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House) writes:

>Here's another data point for those choosing high pressure

>tires.

And here's another

>My second rear was a 23c Michelin HiLite Comp kevlar bead tire,

>1900 miles,

> But here's the kicker, and the reason I'm going to put

>another HiLite Comp on: I got no flats during those 1900 miles

My 1st tire was a Michelin HiLite Comp 23c, no kevlar. It wore out in 968 miles.No flats until it wore to the cords, & I definitely rode through lots of road trash that would have flatted the Specialized K4(?)'s I used to run.

>I weigh 160, and ride pretty hard on generally smooth roads. Both

I weigh 185 & probably see more than my share of chipseal.

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From: jobst_brandt%01@hp1900.desk.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Questions about clincher tires & rims
Message-ID: <48436189.0.0.0@HP1900UX.HPDESK>
Date: 18 Sep 91 16:30:00 GMT
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Ben Crocker writes:

> Now I'm wondering whether I should just bag the use of Kevlar-beaded

> tires completely in favor of wire-beaded tires. I _don't_ want a

> repeat of this afternoon's experience, considering that about one

> minute before the event, I had been going down a local hill at

> 48.6mph.

Yes! Bag the Kevlar beaded tires unless you never get flats (and then you still have to mount the tire at least once). Steel bead tires are easier to mount and are more reliable over time. Kevlar is affected by moisture and becomes brittle with time. You may have heard about bullet proof vests that are no good after a couple of years. Most tires don't last that long but the effect is there with time.

I hate mounting folding tires because they usually go on so tight. My concern is that the bead is not hard and can, therefore, creep more easily than a bead with a steel core. As I mentioned before, the clinch of the hooked bead does most of the holding and if the tire is not correctly seated it will blow out. The most common failure is caused by the tube being caught under the bead at some place. Tubes that are short in circumference are usually the problem.

The clinch test was to cut the steel bead in several places and inflate the tire to 100 psi. It stayed on but blew out at one of the cuts at higher pressure. It was an old worn to the cord tire.

What do I use? I use Mavic MA-2's with Avocet ROAD tires.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

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From: efrank@charm.hep.upenn.edu (Ed Frank)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Questions about clincher tires & rims
Message-ID: <51371@netnews.upenn.edu>
Date: 21 Sep 91 17:35:59 GMT
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In article <48436189.0.0.0@HP1900UX.HPDESK> jobst_brandt%01@hp1900.desk.hp.com writes:

>Ben Crocker writes:

>> Now I'm wondering whether I should just bag the use of Kevlar-beaded tires

>Jobst replies:

>Yes! Bag the Kevlar beaded tires unless you never get flats (and then

>you still have to mount the tire at least once). Steel bead tires are

>easier to mount and are more reliable over time.

My experience with a set of Michelin Hi-Lite tours (700x23) supports Jobst's claims. I have over 2000mi on a set mounted on Araya rims (I pray every night...) The rear has been remounted many times because of flats and spoke replacement (defective wheel) but the front, until a week ago, had never been touched since the initial installation. When the front finaly flatted I noticed when dismounting it that it was substantialy tighter than the rear which, is extremely loose on the rim.

I bought the tires because of their reputed long tread life, not because of the kevlar bead. With respect to this, the tires have shown excellent lifetime (relative to other posters claimed lifetimes for various tires). However, while the performance is better in this respect, people should realize that what Michelin sells as a 700x23 is as wide as my friends 700x25, maybe even as fat as a x28. The long treadwear, then, is a bit of a hoax because the tire realy should be compared to a fatter tire. So, if I compare it with the Specialized Touring-II, 700x28, that my girlfriend just took off after 3000mi because the sidewalls failed, I would say the performance is similiar (N.B. she and I differ by 40 lb.)

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From: gorrie@hercules (Dennis Gorrie (185302696))
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Road tires
Message-ID: <1991Oct1.074043.4525@regina.cs.uregina.ca>
Date: 1 Oct 91 07:40:43 GMT
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The next set I bought are Continental Grand Prix, 23mm wire bead in rear, 20mm foldable in front. Wile I was convinced the 23mm Conti would be much bigger than the 20mm Michelin I had been using, I mounted them both, and the 23mm Conti was the same size as the 20mm Michelin. The 20mm Conti looked albout 66% the width of the Michelin. The good things about these tires are they seem to have much more grip, even after 3000k of use. And, they last longer too (at least for me they have). No cuts are showing in them yet. I had a 2 inch nail go through the rear tire, and right through my Wobler GTX rim, which I had to get replaced. However, I still use the tire, and does not show where the nail punctured it, nor does it bulge out at that point at all. The bad things about these tires (IMHO) are that they are heavier, do not have as smooth a ride at the same pressure as the Michelins, and produce terrible road spray in the rain. A friends bike, with 20mm Panaracers, produces zero road spray, the michelins were so-so, but these Contis are the worst.

Summary: If I had lots of money, I would ride Michelins and replace them every 1000k, because they are light and comfortable. But, I am not rich, and I also hate all the flats I had while using them, so I have stuck to the Conti's which so far seem much more durable.

Dennis Gorrie gorriede@max.cc.uregina.ca gorrie@hercules.cs.uregina.ca gorrie@meena.cc.uregina.ca .ca is CA*NET Canada university/research network

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From: JMMCDOWELL@freh-01ms.adpc.purdue.edu ("Jim McDowell")
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Specialized Turbo/R Tires
Message-ID: 
Date: 3 Oct 91 14:37:11 GMT
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These tires replaced a pair of Matrix 700 x 25 and these tires appear bigger than those also (I didn't measure the Matrix tires since I already had them off of the rims). In measuring circumference for my cyclocomputer I found the 700 x 23's were about 1.1 centimeters larger than the Matrix 700 x 25's.

The new Turbo/R specifies 110 psi max, the old ones 115.

Did Specialized put the wrong size on the tire mold? These look more like 700 x 28. Any ideas?

Thanks.

Jim

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From: tom@lightning.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Tire Recommendations?
Message-ID: 
Date: 11 Dec 91 05:05:44 GMT
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kanazawa@cs.ubc.ca (Keiji Kanazawa) writes: )The other possibility I have in mind is to get Avocet Fasgrips, )probably K20s (?). What are people's experiences with these tires? ) )The road is indeed often wet here, by the way!

VERY bad combination. The Avocet Fasgrips are a good tire in most respects: rolling resistance is low, puncture resistance is decent, and traction on dry pavement is good.

Traction on wet pavement is NONEXSISTANT. They have the worst wet traction of any tire I have ever ridden. Seriously, do NOT get the Avocets if you plan to ride in the rain.

I normally ride Continental SuperSport ULTRAs, which have most of the good points of the Avocets, along with good traction in the rain. The main problem with them is that when they start to wear down, they become very flat-prone (to the tune of one or two a week until you replace them). Their flat resistance is decent when they're new. -Tom

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